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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 45 post(s)
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 153	Posted - 2014.04.29 11:40:00 - [1] - Quote Nice! these blogs are coming along fast. Exciting times.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 153	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:06:00 - [2] - Quote I like these changes. Is there any way we can see which stations are going to confer which bonuses before the release? You said that the multiplier will vary depending on the quality of the stations facilities. Also are we going to have to work out the overall multiplier for a system by multiplying all the station's multipliers, or will this information be clear on the star map? I'm going to have to reserve final judgement as there are too man variables at play and so the consequences won't be fully evident until this goes live. I expect it will need quite a bit of tweaking. Overall though very nice changes. But dam you for making me have to make even more complex spreadsheet now! :)
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 153	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:12:00 - [3] - Quote Uncle Shrimpa wrote: Harah Noud wrote: Eitak Utrigas wrote: CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again! U don't pay the tax in a POS You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 153	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:18:00 - [4] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: So. Starbases are either immune to, or have owner-set, taxes, so that's 10% reduced job installation cost right off the bat. This definitely seems to imply no tax at a POS? It is always amusing watching people throw a hissy fit based upon a false assumption. Sometime I think people just skim the Blog without actually understanding anything, and then jump on the forums to complain about some imagined transgression. But that couldn't be possible, surely people couldn't be so stupid right.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 153	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:21:00 - [5] - Quote Uncle Shrimpa wrote: Medalyn Isis wrote: Uncle Shrimpa wrote: Harah Noud wrote: Eitak Utrigas wrote: CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again! U don't pay the tax in a POS You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog. OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied Yes, but that is not a tax, that is the installation cost to hire all the workers and machinary needed. Two very clearly defined and different aspects of industry. If you want to complain that POS labs have installations costs which are too high, then that is another matter. But you can't really make that judgement as GreyScale has said more info is still to come on POS bonuses for having multiple modules, so best to hold tight for that info to be made available.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 153	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:29:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Harah Noud wrote: Well other than these points I m happy with the changes 1- a +5% ME bonus for a fully upgraded amarr null sec stations seems high , maybe raise their run cost to compensate? 2- I think it s really important to have the NPC station tax be affected by standings. I hope u could consider doing it with the expansion! Btw, is the industry implants effects still the same in the new system? Is it calculated above all other bonuses? Great job The full 5% bonus is a lot of money, and in any case is somewhat overshadowed currently by the Minmatar reprocessing bonus. We're not super-concerned about the balance here just yet. I'll see what can be done about the standings. I believe industry implants should still work, yes +1 for making standing affect the NPC station tax. Also a full 5% bonus is indeed a very good bonus for a null sec station. Imo that is possibly too much of an advantage for outposts, and definitely shouldn't be increased further. Also any details on where we can find the station modifiers?
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:33:00 - [7] - Quote Rapscallion Jones wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Uncle Shrimpa wrote: OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied so by tax u mean install cost? not tax Somantics people, stop fixing on them and read his intent. Where is the offset for the cost of running a POS? Taxes aren't going to come close to the +500mil cost of operating a POS. It is not just semantics when they are calling people out for failed reading comprehension when clearly failing at it themselves. And as GreyScale stated in his post above, taxes and installation costs are two distinct aspects of the total cost.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:40:00 - [8] - Quote Qorinn Eselle wrote: The economic logic behind the installation cost calculation eludes me. Making the installation cost for a manufacturing job correlate directly to the sell price of the completed item in a given region doesn't make much sense. The cost to manufacture an individual BMW has nothing to do with the final sticker price at the dealership, let alone an average of sticker prices in a particular region over a given time. If anything, there might be pressure on the sell price created by rising manufacturing costs, but not the other way around. I would love to hear Dr EyjoGGÇÖs perspective on this. IGÇÖm glad to hear that youGÇÖre GÇ£aware of the risk of price manipulation,GÇ¥ and that youGÇÖre GÇ£confident this system is robust in this regard.GÇ¥ It would be nice to get more details on how you plan to combat this, because it is inevitable that GÇ£someoneGÇ¥ will try. I somewhat agree with you here. This is a crude method for working out the cost. Surely it would be more logical for the cost to be based upon the amount of m3 of materials being used in the process. That would make logical sense, and would also roughly correlate to more expensive items being more expensive to manufacture. It would also have the added bonus of being immune from price manipulation. I don't like the idea of fluctuating costs depending on the going market rate for the finished product, it will not be enjoyable to calculate that. Also it reeks of opportunism by the greedy NPC corporations. :)
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:56:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Medalyn Isis wrote: [ I somewhat agree with you here. This is a crude method for working out the cost. Surely it would be more logical for the cost to be based upon the amount of m3 of materials being used in the process. That would make logical sense, and would also roughly correlate to more expensive items being more expensive to manufacture. It would also have the added bonus of being immune from price manipulation. I don't like the idea of fluctuating costs depending on the going market rate for the finished product, it will not be enjoyable to calculate that. Also it reeks of opportunism by the greedy NPC corporations. :) We were originally looking at a volume-based system, but IIRC we decided there were too many weird relationships for it to really make sense. For me the big issue with making it variable system based upon some obscure formula which we will never have access to based upon market prices, is that it will be impossible to accurately calculate the cost of production as there will be too many variables specific to each manufacturing job. I can live with the price fluctuating depending on system activity and teams as mentioned in the blog, but adding another variable in to the mix, for which we will never have the formula, will make it very difficult to predict results. So for that reason I am personally not keen on tying it to market prices.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 14:03:00 - [10] - Quote probag Bear wrote: Ouch. Hurts to hear that even though I currently have more assembly lines at my POSes than some station systems do, they won't count for anything under the new system. They will do, but they haven't figured out an appropriate bonus yet as detailed in the blog.

Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 14:10:00 - [11] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: Weaselior wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that. From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one. It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs? It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect. Hmm, so if the real market has minimal affect on the cost calculation, then surely they aren't based upon the market, or if so only very vaguely and must be linked to something else. Whatever it is, it is pretty confusing and makes industry that much more of a headache to calculate. Especially when the details are so vague.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 14:13:00 - [12] - Quote Aryth wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: Weaselior wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that. From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one. It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs? It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect. Ok. We had mostly graphed this in a spreadsheet as I recall and figured out how the serverside variable you were never sending to client was determined. But as long as you guys are aware ok. Well from that response it seems CCP set the market values themselves. Very little influence is taken from the market.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 14:17:00 - [13] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: Aryth wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: Weaselior wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that. From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one. It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs? It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect. Ok. We had mostly graphed this in a spreadsheet as I recall and figured out how the serverside variable you were never sending to client was determined. But as long as you guys are aware ok. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that manipulation can't happen, but the fact we're only dealing with small fractions of the actual value means their effects will be minimal for the cost calculation. The biggest risk of exploitation has always been the FW payout system because of the link between ISK values and LPs, which creates dangers. But those are irrelevant for the cost calculation, so we're optimistic (famous last words, I know ). Also it was mentioned that the cost Is based upon the regional market price. This would mean that maniplulation could effectively close down an entire regions viability for producing certain items. Yes perhaps only by increasing costs by a couple of %, but that still will have a cumulative affect and scales to having a larger affect on more expensive items.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 14:20:00 - [14] - Quote Tippia wrote: Ok, I just know I must have missed something in all of this, but I can't spot any specific bonus related to them, soGÇª GÇªwhat's the point of even having a POS if it is not treated as its own separate entity that adds to/provides unique ownership of the industry capacity of the system? The station slot system that benefits systems with many indy stations is transformed into a system-wide bonus that depends on the number of stations. But what do POSes add? The point of having one is that you get even more slots and don't have to mingle with the unwashed masses, and those slots are yours and yours alone GÇö let everyone else fight over the public scraps. Where's that in the new system? I'm not just talking about the missing bonus for having multiple arrays of the same type. What's the point of the POS itself in such a system? The POS will not add to the overall multiplier, only stations are taken into consideration for that. And then CCP mentioned further bonuses will be announced dependent on the amount of mods stacked in the POS, which I expect will set the POS lab apart from stations in some meaningful way.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:31:00 - [15] - Quote gascanu wrote: Quote: Taxes: NPC-owned facilities will levy a 10% tax on top of everything else. This will be at least absent in player-owned facilities, and if we have time, we will allow players to set whatever arbitrary tax rate they like on their own facilities, the proceeds of which (the tax specifically, that is) will go directly into their own (or their corporation's in most cases) coffers. what about NPC 0.0 stations? will they be "taxed" like in empire or like in 0.0 outposts? all in all, 10% of the building price is waaaay too much. i think this and the reprocessing nerf will send some BIG shock waves all around the universe. maybe will be better to do this in small steps, and see how things work out... p.s; i wish you guys all the luck with this implementation and i hope to be wrong, but remembering "the united inventory thing" i can't but brace myself and wait for the storm Yes I'd like to add this too. NPC 0.0 stations should have some advantage over LS and HS. As I don't think the multiplier is going to be able to reach the levels of high sec given the sparsity of stations in 0.0.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 16:37:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Two step wrote: If you want to use km value, you NEED to add an API endpoint to give people this value. I'll talk to some people. Yes this needs to be done if that variable will be used.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 154	Posted - 2014.04.29 17:22:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: gascanu wrote: what about NPC 0.0 stations? will they be "taxed" like in empire or like in 0.0 outposts? NPC 0.0 are probably taxed like hisec, for the time being, as it preserves the balance status quo. NPC nullsec needs some love, but we don't want to make major changes without having time to think them over properly. This is sad to hear. I feel you should put in some change to NPC 0.0. Right now anyone who does industry in 0.0 NPC is going to get shafted unless you make the stations there get a much higher multiplier due to the fact that stations are much more sparse in 0.0 NPC space. Would it be possible for a simply fix to at least ensure 0.0 NPC can compete with low sec by tweaking the multipliers on the stations until a proper overhaul is in the works?